Curse

Kaleban · May 22, 2008, 04:28 PM // 16:28

IMHO:

DPS: Moebius+Death Blossom, plus who doesn't like using a skill named after a 19th century mathematician combined with an attack from the Last Starfighter?

Versatility: Shattersin, which sounds cool and can be used anywhere and everywhere, but like any jack-of-all-trades does several things well but exceeds at none.

Survivor: Glad Igor brought this up, since title grinding with the HoM is more prevalent. I would have to say the MOST effective is to have EoTN and do the Kilroy Stonekin run, as covered in the thread in the farming forum. Since any class can do it, its a non-build issue. Of course, if you decide to actually play to survivor, Crit Barrage is probably the best, mixed with a minion wall hero build. To be even more survivable, mixing in Critical Defenses for the stray melee or ranged attack might be a good idea as well.

However, on a sin, I would seriously recommend playing to survivor with H/H, since Crit Barrage is not the most effective PvE build, you won't be helping a human team much, and ESPECIALLY in PUGs if you're hovering over the logout key and bail when it gets heavy, you'll only contribute to the negative feeling of sins more. But I can say I got my melee Dervish to L3 survivor by playing smart and using double XP skill cap weekends to get about 400k xp in caps. A sin, with CS maintaining CD and CA might actually be more survivable than even a dervish, especially with a few monk or dervish prots of his own.

Super Igor · May 22, 2008, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

IMHO:

DPS: Moebius+Death Blossom, plus who doesn't like using a skill named after a 19th century mathematician combined with an attack from the Last Starfighter?

Versatility: Shattersin, which sounds cool and can be used anywhere and everywhere, but like any jack-of-all-trades does several things well but exceeds at none.

Though Moebius Strike and Death Blossom are one of the most cool sounding skill names in game I dont run them because of this, no, I run them because they are versatile and very effective...DPS is huge, can be run almost anywere with great success...has limited ammount of counters...this makes it a best Assassin build.

Shattersin - NO WAY(!) It is versatile, yes, endeed it is the best enchie/stance defense-busting build out there but the DPS is not as good as MS/DB has...and thats what usually matters...taking shatersin in an area that doesnt have all those defenses is just an overkill...go for damage. Shattersin is good because it just does what it should best, aka, Shatterring defenses, so if you are going into an area that has plenty of those things Shattersin would be extremely helpful, but in the rest, not worth it.

Quote:

Survivor: Glad Igor brought this up, since title grinding with the HoM is more prevalent. I would have to say the MOST effective is to have EoTN and do the Kilroy Stonekin run, as covered in the thread in the farming forum. Since any class can do it, its a non-build issue. Of course, if you decide to actually play to survivor, Crit Barrage is probably the best, mixed with a minion wall hero build. To be even more survivable, mixing in Critical Defenses for the stray melee or ranged attack might be a good idea as well.

However, on a sin, I would seriously recommend playing to survivor with H/H, since Crit Barrage is not the most effective PvE build, you won't be helping a human team much, and ESPECIALLY in PUGs if you're hovering over the logout key and bail when it gets heavy, you'll only contribute to the negative feeling of sins more. But I can say I got my melee Dervish to L3 survivor by playing smart and using double XP skill cap weekends to get about 400k xp in caps. A sin, with CS maintaining CD and CA might actually be more survivable than even a dervish, especially with a few monk or dervish prots of his own.

Glad you actually post something other than useless flaming. Yeah, Critical Barrage would...no matter what be the best choice for surviving sins, it is so good to be long way away from all those mobs who can hit very hard having only 70 AL. I do agree also about H/H....large pugs are known for their stupidity, there always is a retard who will mess everything up or rage or whatever, maybe it is a wrong statement, cant say for sure as I never pug...what is more never take more than one person with me for general HM PvE unless forming a guild or ally group but even so I always check the people I take with me and still dont enjoy and appritiate i as much as going duo with a friend and our heroes, It is much easyer to manage such teams, and heroes with well tweaked (tweaked by me

) are aweasome.

As for for Critbar's PvE effectiveness and that it doesnt help the team much...you are very very wrong and are doing something wrongly...Critbar's though doesnt deal as much DPS as a MS/DB it's damage is still very large especially after the [Barrage] damage buff, [ebon battle standard of honor] and [favorable winds] which imho, any barrage sin must bring with him. This way the critical damage is huge, reaching anywere from 60 (rare) to 95 which is helpful isnt it?

Unreal Havoc · May 22, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Legendary Survivor on an Assassin isn't really that hard tbh. The key to getting Legendary Survivor (the hard way) is to change the build to suit what you're fighting.

Forward preparation is the key to success here.

Advice from an Assassin Legendary Survivor.

Super Igor · May 22, 2008, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Meh, tbh, if you know how to kite and when you need to get your Assassin Ass out of there you will never die.

Advice from an Assassin who always has problems with dieing in case of a wipe...and well...has problems wiping too... :S

Bobby2 · May 22, 2008, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Yeah, Critical Barrage would...no matter what be the best choice for surviving sins, it is so good to be long way away from all those mobs who can hit very hard having only 70 AL. I do agree also about H/H....large pugs are known for their stupidity, there always is a retard who will mess everything up or rage or whatever, maybe it is a wrong statement, cant say for sure as I never pug...

PUGs will include a ragequitter. It's Murphy's Law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

what is more never take more than one person with me for general HM PvE unless forming a guild or ally group but even so I always check the people I take with me and still dont enjoy and appritiate i as much as going duo with a friend and our heroes, It is much easyer to manage such teams, and heroes with well tweaked (tweaked by me ) are aweasome.

Heroes > PUG, this is fact. But I don't ever have to check my guildies... they have brains.

On your Heroes: I've seen Igorway. Think I'll pass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Legendary Survivor on an Assassin isn't really that hard tbh. The key to getting Legendary Survivor (the hard way) is to change the build to suit what you're fighting.

Forward preparation is the key to success here.

QFT.

Unreal Havoc · May 22, 2008, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Meh, tbh, if you know how to kite and when you need to get your Assassin Ass out of there you will never die.

Advice from an Assassin who always has problems with dieing in case of a wipe...and well...has problems wiping too... :S

I've always found Shadow of Haste and Dash to be quite useful in PvE for quick escape methods that aren't prone to enchantment removal.

Bobby2 · May 22, 2008, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

I've always found Shadow of Haste and Dash to be quite useful in PvE for quick escape methods that aren't prone to enchantment removal.

Farm skills

Unreal Havoc · May 22, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Farm skills

I first come across them when farming ToPK with the old Arcane Echo SF build before the Black Lotus Strike nerf. Found them incredibly useful in other areas of Guild Wars though.

Targuil · May 23, 2008, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Best pve sin is SF now, nuff' said.

DudeManOzzy · May 23, 2008, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Golden Fox Strike
Wild Strike
Death Blossom
Moebius Strike
Way Of Perfection
Critical Eye
Critical Agility
Critical Defences

Down with golden phoenix-crit strike build!

Super Igor · May 23, 2008, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

On your Heroes: I've seen Igorway. Think I'll pass.

What did you expect from three smiting monks? it is as good as it can get.

Kaleban · May 23, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Though Moebius Strike and Death Blossom are one of the most cool sounding skill names in game I dont run them because of this, no, I run them because they are versatile and very effective...DPS is huge, can be run almost anywere with great success...has limited ammount of counters...this makes it a best Assassin build.

If you notice, I put "DPS:" and then Moebius+DB

Quote:

Shattersin - NO WAY(!) It is versatile, yes, endeed it is the best enchie/stance defense-busting build out there but the DPS is not as good as MS/DB has...and thats what usually matters...taking shatersin in an area that doesnt have all those defenses is just an overkill...go for damage. Shattersin is good because it just does what it should best, aka, Shatterring defenses, so if you are going into an area that has plenty of those things Shattersin would be extremely helpful, but in the rest, not worth it.

If you notice, I put "Versatility:" and then Shattersin

Quote:

Glad you actually post something other than useless flaming. Yeah, Critical Barrage would...no matter what be the best choice for surviving sins, it is so good to be long way away from all those mobs who can hit very hard having only 70 AL. I do agree also about H/H....large pugs are known for their stupidity, there always is a retard who will mess everything up or rage or whatever, maybe it is a wrong statement, cant say for sure as I never pug...what is more never take more than one person with me for general HM PvE unless forming a guild or ally group but even so I always check the people I take with me and still dont enjoy and appritiate i as much as going duo with a friend and our heroes, It is much easyer to manage such teams, and heroes with well tweaked (tweaked by me

) are aweasome.

As for for Critbar's PvE effectiveness and that it doesnt help the team much...you are very very wrong and are doing something wrongly...Critbar's though doesnt deal as much DPS as a MS/DB it's damage is still very large especially after the [Barrage] damage buff, [ebon battle standard of honor] and [favorable winds] which imho, any barrage sin must bring with him. This way the critical damage is huge, reaching anywere from 60 (rare) to 95 which is helpful isnt it?

If you notice. I put "Survivor:" and then Crit Barrage.

If you're going to argue, its a good idea to take an opposing stance on the subject. Moebius+DB has the most DPS, Shattersin the most versatility, and Crit Barrage the most survivability in a normal PvE build. I really wish you'd stop saying I'm always "wrong and bad" because you simply disagree, but whatever.

Suffice to say, a person who has access to EoTN skills and wants survivor isn't going to run a Crit Barrage build. Why? Simple, because they can do the Kilroy Stonekin run which is faster, and barring lag spikes (which will kill you anyways) generates the most xp per run of any run I know of. And you can do it in HM in 10 minutes or less and get 20k xp plus drops and chests.

So obviously, if you have to run a Crit Barrager, you won't be packing skills like EBSoH because you won't have them, but if you do, then its crazily inefficient to try to get Survivor playing Crit Barrage. I think the record for LS with the Kilroy run is something like 7 hours now.

So really, the best thing to do is to get your sin off newb island ASAP, do the run to EoTN areas (can do this as early as lvl 10), and start Kilroy running up to 20, at which point you switch to HM. Once you get your LS title in under 10 hours (don't forget scrolls!), then you can play as normal without having to go Crit Barrage, which IMHO is an insult to sins and a cowardly way to play.

Super Igor · May 23, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

If you notice, I put "Versatility:" and then Shattersin

Cant be used everywere, not versatile.

Quote:

If you're going to argue, its a good idea to take an opposing stance on the subject. Moebius+DB has the most DPS, Shattersin the most versatility, and Crit Barrage the most survivability in a normal PvE build. I really wish you'd stop saying I'm always "wrong and bad" because you simply disagree, but whatever.

Shattersin is effective and needed only in limited ammounts of areas, so no, it not versatile. MS/DB takes it all.

Quote:

Suffice to say, a person who has access to EoTN skills and wants survivor isn't going to run a Crit Barrage build. Why? Simple, because they can do the Kilroy Stonekin run which is faster, and barring lag spikes (which will kill you anyways) generates the most xp per run of any run I know of. And you can do it in HM in 10 minutes or less and get 20k xp plus drops and chests.

Some find it lame...others find it boring.

Quote:

then you can play as normal without having to go Crit Barrage, which IMHO is an insult to sins and a cowardly way to play.

Funny description, stupid, Its up for your pref tbh, I dont like non-dagger assassins myself but or atleast not being in melee range but still, critbars are effective, and deadly in a build example I have shown above which may be hard to grind to full effect (r10 Vang) for a Survivor character but would be good if a player just wants to go critbar..say...to B/P...or just because he wants it.

ogre_jd · May 24, 2008, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

As for for Critbar's PvE effectiveness and that it doesnt help the team much...you are very very wrong and are doing something wrongly...Critbar's though doesnt deal as much DPS as a MS/DB it's damage is still very large especially after the [Barrage] damage buff, [ebon battle standard of honor] and [favorable winds] which imho, any barrage sin must bring with him. This way the critical damage is huge, reaching anywere from 60 (rare) to 95 which is helpful isnt it?

You forgot the [[Sharpen Daggers]. In most areas of the game, mobs tend to wither after a [[Barrage] or two, sometimes outright and sometimes because you've weakened them so much that they're dying to a hit or two from other party members. Dunno about Nightfall, and haven't really tried it much in Prophecies, but in Factions groups tend to be tightly packed together and don't really scatter from the Barrages from my 'Sin. Quite nice in AB, too, for clearing out the capture points, whether it's NPCs or humans.

[Barrage][Distracting Shot][Sharpen Daggers][Way of the Master][Critical Eye][Antidote Signet]

...and two Shadow Arts skills (depending on my mood, usually [[Shadow Refuge], [[Viper's Defense], [[Heart of Shadow] or [[Dark Escape]). Critical Strikes 11+1+2, Marksmanship 12, and the rest into Shadow Arts (I can never remember how much that ends up being without looking - 5 or 6, plus any rune you might have) being what I currently use.

In both PvE and AB, the Critical Barrager I run is vastly outperforming my Barraging Ranger. It's also greatly outperforming my Dagger build attempts, including various tries at a [[Death Blossom]/[[Moebius Strike] build.

I know I said all this earlier in the thread, but it bears repeating. :P

Kaleban · May 24, 2008, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Cant be used everywere, not versatile.

Versatility: From Dictionary.com -

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
ver·sa·tile
Audio Help /ˈvɜrsətl or, especially Brit., -ˌtaɪl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vur-suh-tl or, especially Brit., -tahyl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. capable of or adapted for turning easily from one to another of various tasks, fields of endeavor, etc.: a versatile writer.
2. having or capable of many uses: a versatile tool.
3. Botany. attached at or near the middle so as to swing freely, as an anther.
4. Zoology. turning either forward or backward: a versatile toe.
5. variable or changeable, as in feeling, purpose, or policy: versatile moods.

Shattersin can be used anywhere, that's the point. While its damage output will of course be sub-par compared to MS+DB, you'll have fewer problems running it, especially in HM.

Quote:

Shattersin is effective and needed only in limited ammounts of areas, so no, it not versatile. MS/DB takes it all.

Technically speaking, shattersin can be used anywhere, however no build on a single character is needed since you have others in your party. But since party makeup can vary from player to player (perhaps some critical skills are still locked, etc.) the point is shattersins still do respectable damage while providing unblockable, repeatable enchant stripping in addition to bonus damage.

Quote:

Some find it lame...others find it boring.

I figure most people would rather do 10 hours of Kilroy runs to max out their title for free, rather than spending 60+ hours of careful, tense play where one screw-up means it was all for nothing, or paying some XP runner to lameway your title up. YMMV

Quote:

Funny description, stupid, Its up for your pref tbh, I dont like non-dagger assassins myself but or atleast not being in melee range but still, critbars are effective, and deadly in a build example I have shown above which may be hard to grind to full effect (r10 Vang) for a Survivor character but would be good if a player just wants to go critbar..say...to B/P...or just because he wants it.

You try and extend the olive branch... man. Of course its up to player preference, and you don't need a maxed out PvE title to make the PvE skills effective, even at rank 5 Vanguard, EBSoH is adding 10 damage per hit, which is tough to beat from any other skills I know of in a Crit Barrage build. As I initially said:

DPS = Moebius
Versatility = Shattersin
Survivor = Crit Barrage/Kilroy runs++

If you want to argue some more, go ahead, but please leave out the insults and name calling, k?

fireflyry · May 24, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

FFS.

Stop killing good threads with tanties plz.

Tyla · May 24, 2008, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Oh my, so nice of you Tyla!

Butby "tanking" we mean holding or taking aggro and bringing it to were it should be. In this case Assassin are just not build for any kind of such actions, and are better off sending higher AL's or the minion wall first and then enterring battle themselves and destroy everything with their insane DPS.

Holding aggro IS NOT tanking!!!!!!

Bobby2 · May 24, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Holding aggro IS NOT tanking!!!!!!

This has been pointed out before. It didn't quite sink in with some people.

Rather have aggro on me:
1) for true Death Blossom goodness
2) so my backline can have a clear overview

for those of you who still feel [skill]save yourselves[/skill] is 'optional'

3) to keep baddies off my backliners' tails

ogre_jd · May 24, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Holding aggro IS NOT tanking!!!!!!

Except, of course, that it is. The entire point of tanking, in a multiplayer situation, is to hold aggro to keep it from spilling over to the more fragile members of the party, preferably keeping the enemies bunched together in the process. Whether you do it via blocking, damage prevention or absorption, healing, having massive amounts of hit points, evasion, or by some other method, is immaterial - it's all really for the same purpose and amounts to the same thing.

Tyla · May 24, 2008, 08:00 PM // 20:00

No, tanking is when you devote your bar to defense and rely on the enemy AI to not flop and find your casters so after that you flee because you're screwed.